Futures of the Internet; A Long Summation with Pictures!

by Art Fag City on April 18, 2008 · 89 comments Events

futures-of-the-internet.jpg
Left to right: Clay Shirky, Jonathan Zittrain, Jimmy Wales, Lauren Cornell, and the arm of Tim Wu. Photo AFC

Predictably lolcats dominated Wednesday’s panel discussion Futures of the Internet at NYU, as both examples of the seemingly limitless human ability to waste time, and as a form of creative expression unique to the Internet. Moderated and organized by Elizabeth Stark, Harvard law student, and founder of the Harvard Free Culture group, panel members Lauren Cornell, Executive Director of Rhizome, Clay Shirky, author of The Power of Organizing without Organizations, Tim Wu, Columbia, Professor of Law, Jonathan Zittrain , Professor Oxford University, Visiting Professor NYU, and Jimmy Wales, Founder of Wikipedia, spoke about their vision of the future Internet.

Speaking to the human tendency to waste time, Shirky cited the emergence of the sitcom in the 1950′s as the most important cultural phenomenon of that century. Not only did it transition us from the industrial age to today, but, importantly, it marks the beginning of the couch potato. lolcats, Shirky suggests, are simply another result of this freed up time. No prediction for the future was made, on account of the self described role of the academic to reflect on what’s already happened and tell others what it means. Nobody took issue with this on account of the fact that none of us know what the Internet will look like 10 years from now. Also, everything that comes out of that man’s mouth sounds like truth, regardless of its actual merit, so it takes a bit to digest what he’s said. To be honest, I’m not sure he said that much. Certainly his thoughts on today’s larger net community, didn’t go too much past identifying what we already know.

Tim Wu felt a little bit more comfortable making predictions, and talked about the collision between the ideology of decentralization, and a much more centralized media stream. In other words, he felt net neutrality was the most important issue facing Internet users today. Between him and Clay Shirky there was a lot of talk about how much change the Internet had brought, which of course, hasn’t been the case for the art world. Lauren Cornell made this point, observing that the economics of the art world remain based on scarcity, a particular challenge to artists who work with freely circulating media files, software, etc. She also noted that many artists in this field work intuitively, a particularly salient point as applied to group bloggers (many of whom were in attendance). I didn’t have the sense anyone came out with a better idea of what net artists do, but given the general audience my feeling was that even the introduction to Rhizome was probably a good start. After all, even co-panelist Jimmy Wales, didn’t appear to be overly familiar with the organization, referring to Lauren Cornell, as “her” in his own talk.

Wales used the platform to speak further on the community aspect of the web, which, predictably, he felt was growing. Almost endless debate could go on regarding the effectiveness of these communities, and did, though the conversation is so familiar at this point I wasn’t overly interested. The most engaging idea he contributed to my mind, spoke to the fact that communications would soon be cheaper than food, which meant we might be hearing a few complaints from third world countries soon. I suspect the practicalities of making such a thing happen punch a few holes in the plausibility of this scenerio, but I’d at least like to entertain the thought that these nations might be given a voice, so I’ll leave that discussion where it is.

jonathan.jpg
Jonathan Zittrain after the lecture, photo AFC

On a lighter note, the majority of the comic relief for the evening, came from Jonathan Zittrain, who coincidently ridiculed Clay Shirky early in the evening for his assertion that the sitcom was of such importance, before using it as a delivery model for his own ideas. Of course, I don’t think anyone would claim this action would necessarily challenge whatever Zittrain’s objection to Shirky’s ideas might be (he never said), but I did find the coincidence amusing.

Zittrain’s talk consisted of three possible futures, complete with nick names; “The Rainbows and Buttercups/HR Pufnstuf version, a happy happy joy joy collective utopic vision of freedom, a second, less optimistic proposal, titled “the Internet Meltdown”, in which the openness of the net is eaten away by reality, (ie the net becomes “enforceable and lockdown-able), and a lastly, the “Not a Bang, But a Whimper”/Leave it to Beaver”, possibility, a pleasant but insidious environment in which our choices are prescribed to us in the form of menu bars or the iphone. The panel seemed largely in agreement with Zittrain on the thought that we would have to fight to preserve our freedoms, his talk closing on a rather depressing note once citing Amazon Mechanical Turk, as website run with the primary objective of turning our brains into server space.

I suspect the majority of the audience agreed that the third scenario put forth was the most likely, so it seemed a bit of a shame that the panel was missing an activist like Nicholas Reville of Participatory Culture Foundation, who could speak to the practicalities involved in fighting against forces that remove some of our freedoms.

In the interest in keeping this post readable in length, I won’t bother summarizing the Q&A, except to say that Zittrain’s characterization of nerds and programmers [editors note: Slashdotters] as the Simpson’s personality Nelson, was perfect (Zittrain began this caricature with the disclaimer that it was only a generalization). Obviously, the I-know-better-than-you-and-will-only-help-if-I-have-to mentality is of limited value. I also found it interesting that one audience member described the Rhizome site as authoritative and institutional. Certainly there is truth to the statement, though I think some of the comment threads currently on the site create much more back and forth between the institution and the community than this comment suggests.

  • Jacob G

    You forgot the best part: the heckling!

    Honestly though I was surprised by the amount of passionate and vocal audience participation, even if much of it was unsolicited. It does serve as a nice counterpoint to Zittrain’s “comic relief” which seemed more condescending and inappropriate from where I was sitting. It seemed like he was operating from some mid-ninteties caricature of hackers as friendless nerds in their parents’ basement and completely ignored the passionate political movements going on around the web through the creative commons, EFF, and (as you noted) PCF.

    For every digital utopian there needs to be a nay-sayer, and for every Mechanical Turk there’s something like reCAPTCHA (http://recaptcha.net/) but there’s a lot to be said beyond that and generally I think the panel went there. Thanks for the summary.

  • Jacob G

    You forgot the best part: the heckling!

    Honestly though I was surprised by the amount of passionate and vocal audience participation, even if much of it was unsolicited. It does serve as a nice counterpoint to Zittrain’s “comic relief” which seemed more condescending and inappropriate from where I was sitting. It seemed like he was operating from some mid-ninteties caricature of hackers as friendless nerds in their parents’ basement and completely ignored the passionate political movements going on around the web through the creative commons, EFF, and (as you noted) PCF.

    For every digital utopian there needs to be a nay-sayer, and for every Mechanical Turk there’s something like reCAPTCHA (http://recaptcha.net/) but there’s a lot to be said beyond that and generally I think the panel went there. Thanks for the summary.

  • Jacob G

    You forgot the best part: the heckling!

    Honestly though I was surprised by the amount of passionate and vocal audience participation, even if much of it was unsolicited. It does serve as a nice counterpoint to Zittrain’s “comic relief” which seemed more condescending and inappropriate from where I was sitting. It seemed like he was operating from some mid-ninteties caricature of hackers as friendless nerds in their parents’ basement and completely ignored the passionate political movements going on around the web through the creative commons, EFF, and (as you noted) PCF.

    For every digital utopian there needs to be a nay-sayer, and for every Mechanical Turk there’s something like reCAPTCHA (http://recaptcha.net/) but there’s a lot to be said beyond that and generally I think the panel went there. Thanks for the summary.

  • Jacob G

    You forgot the best part: the heckling!

    Honestly though I was surprised by the amount of passionate and vocal audience participation, even if much of it was unsolicited. It does serve as a nice counterpoint to Zittrain’s “comic relief” which seemed more condescending and inappropriate from where I was sitting. It seemed like he was operating from some mid-ninteties caricature of hackers as friendless nerds in their parents’ basement and completely ignored the passionate political movements going on around the web through the creative commons, EFF, and (as you noted) PCF.

    For every digital utopian there needs to be a nay-sayer, and for every Mechanical Turk there’s something like reCAPTCHA (http://recaptcha.net/) but there’s a lot to be said beyond that and generally I think the panel went there. Thanks for the summary.

  • Art Fag City

    I ran into said heckler when entering the building and was immediately worried when he told the guard where he was going. Even there, he was loud and obnoxious.

    I agree that Zittrains comic relief had a condescending undertone to it, and I felt the same way when he spoke in Croatia last year at the icommons conference. That said, I still think he’s an extremely effective speaker, so I’m inclined to forgive a lot (but not the ignoring of web based activism).

    Re: reCAPTCHA. Agreed.

  • Art Fag City

    I ran into said heckler when entering the building and was immediately worried when he told the guard where he was going. Even there, he was loud and obnoxious.

    I agree that Zittrains comic relief had a condescending undertone to it, and I felt the same way when he spoke in Croatia last year at the icommons conference. That said, I still think he’s an extremely effective speaker, so I’m inclined to forgive a lot (but not the ignoring of web based activism).

    Re: reCAPTCHA. Agreed.

  • http://doublehappiness.ilikenicethings.com Bennett

    The heckler dudes were hilarious – I didn’t catch their names but they seem to be well known, older net-anarchist theorist types. When the one dude kept interrupting for the 3rd time and everyone was shushing him, and someone just yelled “social norm!” – so good. The whole panel quickly lost the feeling of audience/panel and made me realize that most of these people are used to spending a lot of time writing on forums and ranting.

    With all that I agree that it made it hard to delve particularly deep into any one facet of this debate, and the Q&A really took it all over the place. But the energy was palpable.

    re: Shirky talking about the sitcom:
    I thought his point was that the time freed up by industrialization was initially filled by the passive sitcom, and now that time is filled with the internet. Some seem surprised that ‘people have so much time to make all of this internet culture,’ but really we have had that free time since the 50s – now we use it in a more active and productive way.

    I agreed with Lauren’s point that web art has often predicted future online social behaviors and trends. I think that non-artist online groups like 4chan and other lulz/meme related outfits also generate and popularize a lot of the content that later become more general cultural memes (generally jokes, as opposed to more ‘artistic’ content).
    Web art actions (ranging in form from making posts to the techniques used to cull materials) often subvert standard web use practices, sometimes doing things ‘wrong,’ taking the long way around, noticing patterns, using online tools for non-functional ends, and getting caught up on aesthetic/presentation in places where information is supposed to be paramount.
    In terms of a Future for the Internet, I wonder if online art will follow the path of the meme and be able to bring its ideas into a larger artistic/cultural conversation about media (I hope so) without getting lumped in with the expectation that ideas and culture that start on the internet have to be for entertainment or be funny (I hope not.)

    (correction: Zittrain was referring to “HR Pufnstuf” – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JA3FFT54Ehs)

  • http://doublehappiness.ilikenicethings.com Bennett

    The heckler dudes were hilarious – I didn’t catch their names but they seem to be well known, older net-anarchist theorist types. When the one dude kept interrupting for the 3rd time and everyone was shushing him, and someone just yelled “social norm!” – so good. The whole panel quickly lost the feeling of audience/panel and made me realize that most of these people are used to spending a lot of time writing on forums and ranting.

    With all that I agree that it made it hard to delve particularly deep into any one facet of this debate, and the Q&A really took it all over the place. But the energy was palpable.

    re: Shirky talking about the sitcom:
    I thought his point was that the time freed up by industrialization was initially filled by the passive sitcom, and now that time is filled with the internet. Some seem surprised that ‘people have so much time to make all of this internet culture,’ but really we have had that free time since the 50s – now we use it in a more active and productive way.

    I agreed with Lauren’s point that web art has often predicted future online social behaviors and trends. I think that non-artist online groups like 4chan and other lulz/meme related outfits also generate and popularize a lot of the content that later become more general cultural memes (generally jokes, as opposed to more ‘artistic’ content).
    Web art actions (ranging in form from making posts to the techniques used to cull materials) often subvert standard web use practices, sometimes doing things ‘wrong,’ taking the long way around, noticing patterns, using online tools for non-functional ends, and getting caught up on aesthetic/presentation in places where information is supposed to be paramount.
    In terms of a Future for the Internet, I wonder if online art will follow the path of the meme and be able to bring its ideas into a larger artistic/cultural conversation about media (I hope so) without getting lumped in with the expectation that ideas and culture that start on the internet have to be for entertainment or be funny (I hope not.)

    (correction: Zittrain was referring to “HR Pufnstuf” – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JA3FFT54Ehs)

  • http://tommoody.us tom moody

    Thanks for the reports on this event.
    Bennett, your comments are tangentially related to the (unanswered) questions I raised in this Rhizome thread:

    http://rhizome.org/editorial/fp/blog.php/616

    so, thanks. It’s nice these issues are being talked about here, if not on Rhizome.

  • http://tommoody.us tom moody

    Thanks for the reports on this event.
    Bennett, your comments are tangentially related to the (unanswered) questions I raised in this Rhizome thread:

    http://rhizome.org/editorial/fp/blog.php/616

    so, thanks. It’s nice these issues are being talked about here, if not on Rhizome.

  • http://tommoody.us tom moody

    Thanks for the reports on this event.
    Bennett, your comments are tangentially related to the (unanswered) questions I raised in this Rhizome thread:

    http://rhizome.org/editorial/fp/blog.php/616

    so, thanks. It’s nice these issues are being talked about here, if not on Rhizome.

  • Art Fag City

    Hi Bennett,

    Yeah, that was Shirky’s point, but I don’t think he put a positive or negative spin on whether the kind of activity the internet inspired was productive. My feeling was that, if anything, lolcats were given negative connotation as far as time spent, since they were directly compared to the 50′s couch potato. I doubt he’d make an overt blanket statement about their cultural value though since it’s not really a black and white issue.

    I guess I’m pretty skeptical about the concept that art is a barometer for future trends and social behaviors, if only because the term has be spread so thin in order for that to be true. I mean, if we assume that the internet flattens everything, and any creative act is essentially an artistic one if you chose to name it so, then sure, “that teenager working all day in his basement” Cory Arcangel describes as his largest artistic rival, is an artist, and we’re at the forefront. But I don’t wholly subscribe to the line of thought that there is no hierarchy on the web. If this is true, why is Rhizome even necessary? Also, I think the whole notion of artists being the barometer of future trends is a popular myth that is only partially true. A few will act as this barometer, yes, but I don’t think this is unique to the field of fine art. Lauren herself pointed out that the true innovators are also in the porn industry, so it seems to me most likely that the true innovators a sprinkled across many fields, and only later will we know who are the most significant.

    With that said, I do think your observations about web art actions that subvert web standard use practices are one example of where artists have stood out from the crowd, and may they well be part of the few who are “the barometer” we speak of. The interesting thing about this, is that, I think these actions, at times, can be deceptively simple, so people frequently overlook their value as art. I always thought John Michael Boling’s use of the marque tag in 50 Years Ago Today was kind of like that – it’s easy to do from a technical standpoint – in the same way making a singular mark with a paint brush might be, but executing it with such elegance isn’t, nor is having the foresight to do it in the first place.

    In regards to the future: I think online art is gaining visibility, and artists will likely be able to bring their ideas into larger cultural conversation. How that will happen exactly remains to be determined, but generally speaking, I think if artists want it to happen, they’ll find a way to do it. That’s what artists do.

    PS Thanks for the correction!

  • Art Fag City

    Hi Bennett,

    Yeah, that was Shirky’s point, but I don’t think he put a positive or negative spin on whether the kind of activity the internet inspired was productive. My feeling was that, if anything, lolcats were given negative connotation as far as time spent, since they were directly compared to the 50′s couch potato. I doubt he’d make an overt blanket statement about their cultural value though since it’s not really a black and white issue.

    I guess I’m pretty skeptical about the concept that art is a barometer for future trends and social behaviors, if only because the term has be spread so thin in order for that to be true. I mean, if we assume that the internet flattens everything, and any creative act is essentially an artistic one if you chose to name it so, then sure, “that teenager working all day in his basement” Cory Arcangel describes as his largest artistic rival, is an artist, and we’re at the forefront. But I don’t wholly subscribe to the line of thought that there is no hierarchy on the web. If this is true, why is Rhizome even necessary? Also, I think the whole notion of artists being the barometer of future trends is a popular myth that is only partially true. A few will act as this barometer, yes, but I don’t think this is unique to the field of fine art. Lauren herself pointed out that the true innovators are also in the porn industry, so it seems to me most likely that the true innovators a sprinkled across many fields, and only later will we know who are the most significant.

    With that said, I do think your observations about web art actions that subvert web standard use practices are one example of where artists have stood out from the crowd, and may they well be part of the few who are “the barometer” we speak of. The interesting thing about this, is that, I think these actions, at times, can be deceptively simple, so people frequently overlook their value as art. I always thought John Michael Boling’s use of the marque tag in 50 Years Ago Today was kind of like that – it’s easy to do from a technical standpoint – in the same way making a singular mark with a paint brush might be, but executing it with such elegance isn’t, nor is having the foresight to do it in the first place.

    In regards to the future: I think online art is gaining visibility, and artists will likely be able to bring their ideas into larger cultural conversation. How that will happen exactly remains to be determined, but generally speaking, I think if artists want it to happen, they’ll find a way to do it. That’s what artists do.

    PS Thanks for the correction!

  • Art Fag City

    PS: “I think that non-artist online groups like 4chan and other lulz/meme related outfits also generate and popularize a lot of the content that later become more general cultural memes (generally jokes, as opposed to more ‘artistic’ content).”

    Agreed.

  • Art Fag City

    PS: “I think that non-artist online groups like 4chan and other lulz/meme related outfits also generate and popularize a lot of the content that later become more general cultural memes (generally jokes, as opposed to more ‘artistic’ content).”

    Agreed.

  • Art Fag City

    PS: “I think that non-artist online groups like 4chan and other lulz/meme related outfits also generate and popularize a lot of the content that later become more general cultural memes (generally jokes, as opposed to more ‘artistic’ content).”

    Agreed.

  • Art Fag City

    PS: “I think that non-artist online groups like 4chan and other lulz/meme related outfits also generate and popularize a lot of the content that later become more general cultural memes (generally jokes, as opposed to more ‘artistic’ content).”

    Agreed.

  • http://maximumsorrow.com Kevin

    Sites like 4chan and lolcats are businesses. They make no claims to contain profound content — hits are their sole purpose. Somethingawful.com for example, is covered in ads. Contributors make posts like this one (directly quoted):

    “Since Grand Theft Auto IV is a hot topic at the moment and by writing about it we’ll get more hits and ad revenue as people search for the latest information about the game on Google, in today’s article…”

    Of course the purpose of these sites is to be “a barometer of future trends” because they live by the success and expansion of their market. They treat the web like an object, trading it like iron and corn.

    An art website, by contrast, is a gift. An art website is made outside of a market, regardless of trends. It is made at a loss. Instead of connecting users with other users, an art website can connect us with a profound experience.

    I agree with your statement “I don’t wholly subscribe to the line of thought that there is no hierarchy on the web.” You have described John Michael’s piece, for example, as “elegant” therefore placing higher value in it. Online art will not be able to contribute much to the larger cultural conversation until we are able to admit that there is a hierarchy on the web — that there are profound experiences to be had online, and that a criteria can be developed to separate the saccharine billboards from the truly beautiful and nourishing work.

  • http://maximumsorrow.com Kevin

    Sites like 4chan and lolcats are businesses. They make no claims to contain profound content — hits are their sole purpose. Somethingawful.com for example, is covered in ads. Contributors make posts like this one (directly quoted):

    “Since Grand Theft Auto IV is a hot topic at the moment and by writing about it we’ll get more hits and ad revenue as people search for the latest information about the game on Google, in today’s article…”

    Of course the purpose of these sites is to be “a barometer of future trends” because they live by the success and expansion of their market. They treat the web like an object, trading it like iron and corn.

    An art website, by contrast, is a gift. An art website is made outside of a market, regardless of trends. It is made at a loss. Instead of connecting users with other users, an art website can connect us with a profound experience.

    I agree with your statement “I don’t wholly subscribe to the line of thought that there is no hierarchy on the web.” You have described John Michael’s piece, for example, as “elegant” therefore placing higher value in it. Online art will not be able to contribute much to the larger cultural conversation until we are able to admit that there is a hierarchy on the web — that there are profound experiences to be had online, and that a criteria can be developed to separate the saccharine billboards from the truly beautiful and nourishing work.

  • http://maximumsorrow.com Kevin

    Sites like 4chan and lolcats are businesses. They make no claims to contain profound content — hits are their sole purpose. Somethingawful.com for example, is covered in ads. Contributors make posts like this one (directly quoted):

    “Since Grand Theft Auto IV is a hot topic at the moment and by writing about it we’ll get more hits and ad revenue as people search for the latest information about the game on Google, in today’s article…”

    Of course the purpose of these sites is to be “a barometer of future trends” because they live by the success and expansion of their market. They treat the web like an object, trading it like iron and corn.

    An art website, by contrast, is a gift. An art website is made outside of a market, regardless of trends. It is made at a loss. Instead of connecting users with other users, an art website can connect us with a profound experience.

    I agree with your statement “I don’t wholly subscribe to the line of thought that there is no hierarchy on the web.” You have described John Michael’s piece, for example, as “elegant” therefore placing higher value in it. Online art will not be able to contribute much to the larger cultural conversation until we are able to admit that there is a hierarchy on the web — that there are profound experiences to be had online, and that a criteria can be developed to separate the saccharine billboards from the truly beautiful and nourishing work.

  • http://maximumsorrow.com Kevin

    Sites like 4chan and lolcats are businesses. They make no claims to contain profound content — hits are their sole purpose. Somethingawful.com for example, is covered in ads. Contributors make posts like this one (directly quoted):

    “Since Grand Theft Auto IV is a hot topic at the moment and by writing about it we’ll get more hits and ad revenue as people search for the latest information about the game on Google, in today’s article…”

    Of course the purpose of these sites is to be “a barometer of future trends” because they live by the success and expansion of their market. They treat the web like an object, trading it like iron and corn.

    An art website, by contrast, is a gift. An art website is made outside of a market, regardless of trends. It is made at a loss. Instead of connecting users with other users, an art website can connect us with a profound experience.

    I agree with your statement “I don’t wholly subscribe to the line of thought that there is no hierarchy on the web.” You have described John Michael’s piece, for example, as “elegant” therefore placing higher value in it. Online art will not be able to contribute much to the larger cultural conversation until we are able to admit that there is a hierarchy on the web — that there are profound experiences to be had online, and that a criteria can be developed to separate the saccharine billboards from the truly beautiful and nourishing work.

  • http://maximumsorrow.com Kevin

    Sites like 4chan and lolcats are businesses. They make no claims to contain profound content — hits are their sole purpose. Somethingawful.com for example, is covered in ads. Contributors make posts like this one (directly quoted):

    “Since Grand Theft Auto IV is a hot topic at the moment and by writing about it we’ll get more hits and ad revenue as people search for the latest information about the game on Google, in today’s article…”

    Of course the purpose of these sites is to be “a barometer of future trends” because they live by the success and expansion of their market. They treat the web like an object, trading it like iron and corn.

    An art website, by contrast, is a gift. An art website is made outside of a market, regardless of trends. It is made at a loss. Instead of connecting users with other users, an art website can connect us with a profound experience.

    I agree with your statement “I don’t wholly subscribe to the line of thought that there is no hierarchy on the web.” You have described John Michael’s piece, for example, as “elegant” therefore placing higher value in it. Online art will not be able to contribute much to the larger cultural conversation until we are able to admit that there is a hierarchy on the web — that there are profound experiences to be had online, and that a criteria can be developed to separate the saccharine billboards from the truly beautiful and nourishing work.

  • http://tommoody.us tom moody

    In defense of 4Chan I have d/led many GIFs from there that I consider startling, if not profound. I don’t often use them because I consider them too “previously authored” or branded. The site has a certain creative anarchy reminiscent of the Church of the Subgenius’ “Bob” graphics in the Church’s heyday.
    The web has a leveling effect–it is all the same medium coming through our entrancing little TV screens, so artists and consumers alike can be forgiven for not differentiating a gift from someone’s job.
    That said, I still like the old idea of the potlatch or gift economy existing in tandem with all the commercial insanity.

  • http://tommoody.us tom moody

    In defense of 4Chan I have d/led many GIFs from there that I consider startling, if not profound. I don’t often use them because I consider them too “previously authored” or branded. The site has a certain creative anarchy reminiscent of the Church of the Subgenius’ “Bob” graphics in the Church’s heyday.
    The web has a leveling effect–it is all the same medium coming through our entrancing little TV screens, so artists and consumers alike can be forgiven for not differentiating a gift from someone’s job.
    That said, I still like the old idea of the potlatch or gift economy existing in tandem with all the commercial insanity.

  • http://tommoody.us tom moody

    In defense of 4Chan I have d/led many GIFs from there that I consider startling, if not profound. I don’t often use them because I consider them too “previously authored” or branded. The site has a certain creative anarchy reminiscent of the Church of the Subgenius’ “Bob” graphics in the Church’s heyday.
    The web has a leveling effect–it is all the same medium coming through our entrancing little TV screens, so artists and consumers alike can be forgiven for not differentiating a gift from someone’s job.
    That said, I still like the old idea of the potlatch or gift economy existing in tandem with all the commercial insanity.

  • http://tommoody.us tom moody

    In defense of 4Chan I have d/led many GIFs from there that I consider startling, if not profound. I don’t often use them because I consider them too “previously authored” or branded. The site has a certain creative anarchy reminiscent of the Church of the Subgenius’ “Bob” graphics in the Church’s heyday.
    The web has a leveling effect–it is all the same medium coming through our entrancing little TV screens, so artists and consumers alike can be forgiven for not differentiating a gift from someone’s job.
    That said, I still like the old idea of the potlatch or gift economy existing in tandem with all the commercial insanity.

  • http://tommoody.us tom moody

    PS I prefer “leveling” to “flattening” after Thomas Friedman stunk up the joint with his Flat Earth theory.

  • http://tommoody.us tom moody

    PS I prefer “leveling” to “flattening” after Thomas Friedman stunk up the joint with his Flat Earth theory.

  • http://tommoody.us tom moody

    PS I prefer “leveling” to “flattening” after Thomas Friedman stunk up the joint with his Flat Earth theory.

  • http://tommoody.us tom moody

    PS I prefer “leveling” to “flattening” after Thomas Friedman stunk up the joint with his Flat Earth theory.

  • Art Fag City

    “The web has a leveling effect–it is all the same medium coming through our entrancing little TV screens, so artists and consumers alike can be forgiven for not differentiating a gift from someone’s job.”

    Well not everything comes in at the same level — I think everything on those sites appears at the same level which is different. It’s like going to a yard sale – some people love sorting through the junk for the good stuff, others don’t find it so interesting and prefer more presorting to have been done.

    I’m uncomfortable saying that everything we see is leveled because so many of the web tools we have seem to have been made in an effort to help users create hierarchy. The fundemental difference here from traditional media seems primarily in the search functions themselves, which keep the hierarchy defined by the user. One of the concerns this panel discussed was the need to keep as much of this ability in our own hands. It seems to me that this is particularly important to artists who don’t need someone sorting through material for them first to tell them whether it’s worth their time.

  • Art Fag City

    “The web has a leveling effect–it is all the same medium coming through our entrancing little TV screens, so artists and consumers alike can be forgiven for not differentiating a gift from someone’s job.”

    Well not everything comes in at the same level — I think everything on those sites appears at the same level which is different. It’s like going to a yard sale – some people love sorting through the junk for the good stuff, others don’t find it so interesting and prefer more presorting to have been done.

    I’m uncomfortable saying that everything we see is leveled because so many of the web tools we have seem to have been made in an effort to help users create hierarchy. The fundemental difference here from traditional media seems primarily in the search functions themselves, which keep the hierarchy defined by the user. One of the concerns this panel discussed was the need to keep as much of this ability in our own hands. It seems to me that this is particularly important to artists who don’t need someone sorting through material for them first to tell them whether it’s worth their time.

  • http://tommoody.us tom moody

    PPS To revisit a horribly painful topic (for some), I don’t think we ever established whether a photo of a giant cell phone smashing into a car was (a) art or (b) good art.

    PPPS Re: “the economics of the art world remain based on scarcity” is a meme I’d like to see retired. People do not make paintings to be scarce, they make them because they are trying to say something. The economy of the art world is based on intimacy and connection to real objects and spaces that small TV screens do not satisfy. Which is not to say it’s not a reactionary or conservative environment–just that it’s not based solely on a market conspiracy. Others besides Lauren Cornell in the new media scene have said this about scarcity and it needs a rethink.

    (This is where Ed Halter says I am a Pollyana about the true nature of the art world, but so be it–better a Pollyana than a cynic.)

  • http://tommoody.us tom moody

    PPS To revisit a horribly painful topic (for some), I don’t think we ever established whether a photo of a giant cell phone smashing into a car was (a) art or (b) good art.

    PPPS Re: “the economics of the art world remain based on scarcity” is a meme I’d like to see retired. People do not make paintings to be scarce, they make them because they are trying to say something. The economy of the art world is based on intimacy and connection to real objects and spaces that small TV screens do not satisfy. Which is not to say it’s not a reactionary or conservative environment–just that it’s not based solely on a market conspiracy. Others besides Lauren Cornell in the new media scene have said this about scarcity and it needs a rethink.

    (This is where Ed Halter says I am a Pollyana about the true nature of the art world, but so be it–better a Pollyana than a cynic.)

  • http://tommoody.us tom moody

    PPS To revisit a horribly painful topic (for some), I don’t think we ever established whether a photo of a giant cell phone smashing into a car was (a) art or (b) good art.

    PPPS Re: “the economics of the art world remain based on scarcity” is a meme I’d like to see retired. People do not make paintings to be scarce, they make them because they are trying to say something. The economy of the art world is based on intimacy and connection to real objects and spaces that small TV screens do not satisfy. Which is not to say it’s not a reactionary or conservative environment–just that it’s not based solely on a market conspiracy. Others besides Lauren Cornell in the new media scene have said this about scarcity and it needs a rethink.

    (This is where Ed Halter says I am a Pollyana about the true nature of the art world, but so be it–better a Pollyana than a cynic.)

  • http://tommoody.us tom moody

    PPS To revisit a horribly painful topic (for some), I don’t think we ever established whether a photo of a giant cell phone smashing into a car was (a) art or (b) good art.

    PPPS Re: “the economics of the art world remain based on scarcity” is a meme I’d like to see retired. People do not make paintings to be scarce, they make them because they are trying to say something. The economy of the art world is based on intimacy and connection to real objects and spaces that small TV screens do not satisfy. Which is not to say it’s not a reactionary or conservative environment–just that it’s not based solely on a market conspiracy. Others besides Lauren Cornell in the new media scene have said this about scarcity and it needs a rethink.

    (This is where Ed Halter says I am a Pollyana about the true nature of the art world, but so be it–better a Pollyana than a cynic.)

  • http://tommoody.us tom moody

    My last comment was written before reading Paddy’s last comment. Will respond later.

  • http://tommoody.us tom moody

    My last comment was written before reading Paddy’s last comment. Will respond later.

  • http://tommoody.us tom moody

    My last comment was written before reading Paddy’s last comment. Will respond later.

  • http://newsgrist.typepad.com joy

    hi Paddy,
    Am late to this thread — just thanks so much for posting this, am sorry I missed Elizabeth’s panel….

    J

  • http://newsgrist.typepad.com joy

    hi Paddy,
    Am late to this thread — just thanks so much for posting this, am sorry I missed Elizabeth’s panel….

    J

  • http://maximumsorrow.com Kevin

    @ Tom’s defense of 4Chan — by saving some gifs from 4Chan and not others, you admit that the web has a definite hierarchy by admitting that some gifs are better than others. Using the same raw gif material, certain authors have subtly constructed a more “startling” work to your taste, thereby bringing an area of potency to the web (a hierarchy, the opposite of leveling).

    Physical artworks are also all constructed of the same medium — molecules. Just because all physical artworks are constructed of molecules does not mean that all physical artworks are leveled. Some artists arrange molecules better than others. Some net artists arrange non-physical information better than others.

    The web is like a desert. The peaks and valleys of quality are not very apparent. From a distance the desert seems flat, but it is actually this vast low frequency wave of mediocrity. The slightest rustle in the wave is what we have to watch for carefully if we want to have those profound experiences.

  • http://maximumsorrow.com Kevin

    @ Tom’s defense of 4Chan — by saving some gifs from 4Chan and not others, you admit that the web has a definite hierarchy by admitting that some gifs are better than others. Using the same raw gif material, certain authors have subtly constructed a more “startling” work to your taste, thereby bringing an area of potency to the web (a hierarchy, the opposite of leveling).

    Physical artworks are also all constructed of the same medium — molecules. Just because all physical artworks are constructed of molecules does not mean that all physical artworks are leveled. Some artists arrange molecules better than others. Some net artists arrange non-physical information better than others.

    The web is like a desert. The peaks and valleys of quality are not very apparent. From a distance the desert seems flat, but it is actually this vast low frequency wave of mediocrity. The slightest rustle in the wave is what we have to watch for carefully if we want to have those profound experiences.

  • Art Fag City

    Tom: If others want to discuss the cell phone in the car I’m more than happy to do it, but since the same ideas that jpeg brought up are already being discussed, and without its baggage, I’m inclined to think me might get further without revisiting that topic. I’m not closed to talking about it though, so I guess I’ll just wait to see what others have to say.

    On the issue of scarcity, I suppose it’s a little reductive to say the economics are based on availability alone, though my over all sense was that the point was made as a means of illustrating the difference between how much influence the web has on business economies of virtually any kind, and how comparatively little change the art world has seen. There’s much more complexity to all this than scarcity expresses, but I tend to let a few of those things slide at a lecture, because it’s a discussion. With that said, as a counter to the concept of scarcity Lauren brings up, I tend to think 20×200 as a business model challenges that reality, though it’s very new, and like you, I’m much more interested in discussing what an object does, than the mechanics of how it’s sold.

  • Art Fag City

    Tom: If others want to discuss the cell phone in the car I’m more than happy to do it, but since the same ideas that jpeg brought up are already being discussed, and without its baggage, I’m inclined to think me might get further without revisiting that topic. I’m not closed to talking about it though, so I guess I’ll just wait to see what others have to say.

    On the issue of scarcity, I suppose it’s a little reductive to say the economics are based on availability alone, though my over all sense was that the point was made as a means of illustrating the difference between how much influence the web has on business economies of virtually any kind, and how comparatively little change the art world has seen. There’s much more complexity to all this than scarcity expresses, but I tend to let a few of those things slide at a lecture, because it’s a discussion. With that said, as a counter to the concept of scarcity Lauren brings up, I tend to think 20×200 as a business model challenges that reality, though it’s very new, and like you, I’m much more interested in discussing what an object does, than the mechanics of how it’s sold.

  • Art Fag City

    Tom: If others want to discuss the cell phone in the car I’m more than happy to do it, but since the same ideas that jpeg brought up are already being discussed, and without its baggage, I’m inclined to think me might get further without revisiting that topic. I’m not closed to talking about it though, so I guess I’ll just wait to see what others have to say.

    On the issue of scarcity, I suppose it’s a little reductive to say the economics are based on availability alone, though my over all sense was that the point was made as a means of illustrating the difference between how much influence the web has on business economies of virtually any kind, and how comparatively little change the art world has seen. There’s much more complexity to all this than scarcity expresses, but I tend to let a few of those things slide at a lecture, because it’s a discussion. With that said, as a counter to the concept of scarcity Lauren brings up, I tend to think 20×200 as a business model challenges that reality, though it’s very new, and like you, I’m much more interested in discussing what an object does, than the mechanics of how it’s sold.

  • Art Fag City

    Kevin: “The web is like a desert. The peaks and valleys of quality are not very apparent. From a distance the desert seems flat, but it is actually this vast low frequency wave of mediocrity. The slightest rustle in the wave is what we have to watch for carefully if we want to have those profound experiences.”

    I like that a lot.

  • Art Fag City

    Kevin: “The web is like a desert. The peaks and valleys of quality are not very apparent. From a distance the desert seems flat, but it is actually this vast low frequency wave of mediocrity. The slightest rustle in the wave is what we have to watch for carefully if we want to have those profound experiences.”

    I like that a lot.

  • http://tommoody.us tom moody

    Re: hierarchies–as Paddy suggests, anything with a registration requirement automatically creates insiders and outsiders. Even in potlatch economies some people have more to give away.

    By “leveling” I was talking about the medium–how everything from a tinkertoy construction to the Sistine ceiling becomes a 72 dpi image on one basic type of browser.

    Not saying rustles in waves can’t be detected in this arena, only that it’s hard and people need a better idea of how to go about it.

    This is where the giant cell phone is a good example:
    Did the artist get punked by a corporation? Is he punking us? Does the photo need some additional level of transformation to be art? Is the surf club the same as a white cube frame so that even corporate crap becomes art? Does everything on such a site have to be art? Does it have to be good art? Should one always be able to differentiate between good, crap, and work in process? etc

    Art fair or comic con?

  • http://tommoody.us tom moody

    Re: hierarchies–as Paddy suggests, anything with a registration requirement automatically creates insiders and outsiders. Even in potlatch economies some people have more to give away.

    By “leveling” I was talking about the medium–how everything from a tinkertoy construction to the Sistine ceiling becomes a 72 dpi image on one basic type of browser.

    Not saying rustles in waves can’t be detected in this arena, only that it’s hard and people need a better idea of how to go about it.

    This is where the giant cell phone is a good example:
    Did the artist get punked by a corporation? Is he punking us? Does the photo need some additional level of transformation to be art? Is the surf club the same as a white cube frame so that even corporate crap becomes art? Does everything on such a site have to be art? Does it have to be good art? Should one always be able to differentiate between good, crap, and work in process? etc

    Art fair or comic con?

  • http://tommoody.us tom moody

    Re: hierarchies–as Paddy suggests, anything with a registration requirement automatically creates insiders and outsiders. Even in potlatch economies some people have more to give away.

    By “leveling” I was talking about the medium–how everything from a tinkertoy construction to the Sistine ceiling becomes a 72 dpi image on one basic type of browser.

    Not saying rustles in waves can’t be detected in this arena, only that it’s hard and people need a better idea of how to go about it.

    This is where the giant cell phone is a good example:
    Did the artist get punked by a corporation? Is he punking us? Does the photo need some additional level of transformation to be art? Is the surf club the same as a white cube frame so that even corporate crap becomes art? Does everything on such a site have to be art? Does it have to be good art? Should one always be able to differentiate between good, crap, and work in process? etc

    Art fair or comic con?

  • http://tommoody.us tom moody

    Re: hierarchies–as Paddy suggests, anything with a registration requirement automatically creates insiders and outsiders. Even in potlatch economies some people have more to give away.

    By “leveling” I was talking about the medium–how everything from a tinkertoy construction to the Sistine ceiling becomes a 72 dpi image on one basic type of browser.

    Not saying rustles in waves can’t be detected in this arena, only that it’s hard and people need a better idea of how to go about it.

    This is where the giant cell phone is a good example:
    Did the artist get punked by a corporation? Is he punking us? Does the photo need some additional level of transformation to be art? Is the surf club the same as a white cube frame so that even corporate crap becomes art? Does everything on such a site have to be art? Does it have to be good art? Should one always be able to differentiate between good, crap, and work in process? etc

    Art fair or comic con?

  • http://tommoody.us tom moody

    Once again, written before reading Paddy’s last comment.

  • http://tommoody.us tom moody

    Once again, written before reading Paddy’s last comment.

  • http://tommoody.us tom moody

    Once again, written before reading Paddy’s last comment.

  • http://tommoody.us tom moody

    Once again, written before reading Paddy’s last comment.

  • http://tommoody.us tom moody

    Once again, written before reading Paddy’s last comment.

  • Damon

    RE: Tom’s PPS:
    To be more specific: it was whether or not a staged photograph of a giant cellphone smashing into a car masquerading as a amateur photo of a “natural event” but functioning as a viral advertisement (and maybe hence “insult to injury”) was (a) art or (b) good art.

    I’d be reluctant to pick either choice.. but I think Joel’s notion of “watered-down content” is something worth more consideration…

  • Damon

    RE: Tom’s PPS:
    To be more specific: it was whether or not a staged photograph of a giant cellphone smashing into a car masquerading as a amateur photo of a “natural event” but functioning as a viral advertisement (and maybe hence “insult to injury”) was (a) art or (b) good art.

    I’d be reluctant to pick either choice.. but I think Joel’s notion of “watered-down content” is something worth more consideration…

  • Damon

    RE: Tom’s PPS:
    To be more specific: it was whether or not a staged photograph of a giant cellphone smashing into a car masquerading as a amateur photo of a “natural event” but functioning as a viral advertisement (and maybe hence “insult to injury”) was (a) art or (b) good art.

    I’d be reluctant to pick either choice.. but I think Joel’s notion of “watered-down content” is something worth more consideration…

  • Damon

    RE: Tom’s PPS:
    To be more specific: it was whether or not a staged photograph of a giant cellphone smashing into a car masquerading as a amateur photo of a “natural event” but functioning as a viral advertisement (and maybe hence “insult to injury”) was (a) art or (b) good art.

    I’d be reluctant to pick either choice.. but I think Joel’s notion of “watered-down content” is something worth more consideration…

  • http://maximumsorrow.com Kevin

    For me the “giant cell phone” was a small flower in the desert. I glanced at this small flower and then moved on. Later, from a hill, I saw an entire field of flowers. The posts were all pollinating each other, soaking in the web rays.

    Why place all the burden on a single flower? If you spend your time picking apart a single flower, you might miss the beauty of the whole field.

  • http://maximumsorrow.com Kevin

    For me the “giant cell phone” was a small flower in the desert. I glanced at this small flower and then moved on. Later, from a hill, I saw an entire field of flowers. The posts were all pollinating each other, soaking in the web rays.

    Why place all the burden on a single flower? If you spend your time picking apart a single flower, you might miss the beauty of the whole field.

  • Damon

    Interesting timing: http://www.supercentral.org/ is now an open wiki.

  • Damon

    Interesting timing: http://www.supercentral.org/ is now an open wiki.

  • http://tommoody.us tom moody

    Kevin, I have not having reached your blissed out state of web satori and am still in the novice’s position of wanting distinguish mediocrity from watered-down content.

    But seriously, I’ve posted crap for the hell of it and don’t expect to be called on the carpet for it; I have also been hoaxed. It is all part of the training process to where everything becomes beautiful.

  • http://tommoody.us tom moody

    Kevin, I have not having reached your blissed out state of web satori and am still in the novice’s position of wanting distinguish mediocrity from watered-down content.

    But seriously, I’ve posted crap for the hell of it and don’t expect to be called on the carpet for it; I have also been hoaxed. It is all part of the training process to where everything becomes beautiful.

  • http://tommoody.us tom moody

    Re: Supercentral–was wondering wha happened, thanks.

  • http://tommoody.us tom moody

    Re: Supercentral–was wondering wha happened, thanks.

  • http://tommoody.us tom moody

    uh, “wanting to distinguish” is how that should read.

  • http://tommoody.us tom moody

    uh, “wanting to distinguish” is how that should read.

  • Art Fag City

    Kevin: While I do agree with you, I also think some discussion of why specific posts work and why others don’t is really useful. The issue of course, is that all this happens in a public forum, and it’s probably fair to say that everyone on Nasty Nets has a few posts they think aren’t the best things ever, so I do have some sympathy for Damon, who perhaps wishes his piece wasn’t singled out as an example of mediocrity, and may not even agree with the assessment to begin with.

    Damon: I think the explanation helps some, but the viral marketing of a faux amateur photo of a natural event, with or without the question of art, still doesn’t do all that much for me.

    But perhaps that doesn’t matter too much anyway. From what you’re saying, and what I understand Joel’s quote to mean (I think “notion” is overstating a sly comment), it sounds like you weren’t considering it this way at all to begin with, and as such you feel the criticism wasn’t warranted. On those grounds, of course, you’re right, but it seems to me, that even with in the group there were some fairly different ideas about how they were using the blog, and as a reader and critic, I can’t be expected to intuitively know how each member is framing their posts. This is one of the reasons the expanded membership didn’t work for me. As a reader I could more or less keep up with the styles of 7-11 people. Much more than that, and it becomes really difficult.

    To answer a couple of Tom’s questions:

    Is the surf club the same as a white cube frame so that even corporate crap becomes art?
    As mentioned above, as long as you basically know the players the answer is not necessarily. The equation changes some though when you take into consideration Rhizome support, and the expanded membership.

    Does everything on such a site have to be art? Does it have to be good art?
    That’s for members to answer.

    Should one always be able to differentiate between good, crap, and work in process?
    YES!!! For readership purposes I think even some color coding of posts to indicate their intentionality as art, ideas, work in progress or whatever, would help everyone out a lot.

  • Art Fag City

    Kevin: While I do agree with you, I also think some discussion of why specific posts work and why others don’t is really useful. The issue of course, is that all this happens in a public forum, and it’s probably fair to say that everyone on Nasty Nets has a few posts they think aren’t the best things ever, so I do have some sympathy for Damon, who perhaps wishes his piece wasn’t singled out as an example of mediocrity, and may not even agree with the assessment to begin with.

    Damon: I think the explanation helps some, but the viral marketing of a faux amateur photo of a natural event, with or without the question of art, still doesn’t do all that much for me.

    But perhaps that doesn’t matter too much anyway. From what you’re saying, and what I understand Joel’s quote to mean (I think “notion” is overstating a sly comment), it sounds like you weren’t considering it this way at all to begin with, and as such you feel the criticism wasn’t warranted. On those grounds, of course, you’re right, but it seems to me, that even with in the group there were some fairly different ideas about how they were using the blog, and as a reader and critic, I can’t be expected to intuitively know how each member is framing their posts. This is one of the reasons the expanded membership didn’t work for me. As a reader I could more or less keep up with the styles of 7-11 people. Much more than that, and it becomes really difficult.

    To answer a couple of Tom’s questions:

    Is the surf club the same as a white cube frame so that even corporate crap becomes art?
    As mentioned above, as long as you basically know the players the answer is not necessarily. The equation changes some though when you take into consideration Rhizome support, and the expanded membership.

    Does everything on such a site have to be art? Does it have to be good art?
    That’s for members to answer.

    Should one always be able to differentiate between good, crap, and work in process?
    YES!!! For readership purposes I think even some color coding of posts to indicate their intentionality as art, ideas, work in progress or whatever, would help everyone out a lot.

  • http://tommoody.us tom moody

    Color coding didn’t work for Tom Ridge’s Dept of Homeland Security and won’t work for a wacky anarchic art site. A certain amount of mystification is expected.
    (Naturally) I prefer a mix of text and art and don’t particularly like one image butting up against another in a blog.
    In hanging shows you can ruin two good pieces by placing them side by side and there is no control over that kind of design/content decision on a group blog with no “leader.”

  • http://tommoody.us tom moody

    Color coding didn’t work for Tom Ridge’s Dept of Homeland Security and won’t work for a wacky anarchic art site. A certain amount of mystification is expected.
    (Naturally) I prefer a mix of text and art and don’t particularly like one image butting up against another in a blog.
    In hanging shows you can ruin two good pieces by placing them side by side and there is no control over that kind of design/content decision on a group blog with no “leader.”

  • Art Fag City

    Tom: Is it not possible to leave some of that mystification in tact while still giving people a means to sort through what they are looking at? I can see someone not wanting to post something with a golden arc around it that says art, but surely a tag would help. I guess I don’t see the blog in its entirety as art though, (I may have at one point). Do you think Nasty Nets as a whole is art?

  • Art Fag City

    Tom: Is it not possible to leave some of that mystification in tact while still giving people a means to sort through what they are looking at? I can see someone not wanting to post something with a golden arc around it that says art, but surely a tag would help. I guess I don’t see the blog in its entirety as art though, (I may have at one point). Do you think Nasty Nets as a whole is art?

  • http://tommoody.us tom moody

    No, I think it was group blog where most of the users had some art background and thus a shared frame for looking at the web.
    Some of the material I considered (a) art or (b) good art but other things I considered social bookmarking or just clowning around.
    I tried to raise that issue of “yeah but what happens when a cultural institution frames all or part of it as art?” and it went over really big.
    Just one person’s opinion here.

  • http://tommoody.us tom moody

    No, I think it was group blog where most of the users had some art background and thus a shared frame for looking at the web.
    Some of the material I considered (a) art or (b) good art but other things I considered social bookmarking or just clowning around.
    I tried to raise that issue of “yeah but what happens when a cultural institution frames all or part of it as art?” and it went over really big.
    Just one person’s opinion here.

  • http://www.lowfives.mousesafari.com justin

    Re:”I prefer a mix of text and art and don’t particularly like one image butting up against another in a blog.”
    Tom, so what are your thoughts/responses to spirit surfers?
    i’m starting to see that blog, in its entirety, as art.. but that manifesto by kevin helped out a bit.

  • http://www.lowfives.mousesafari.com justin

    Re:”I prefer a mix of text and art and don’t particularly like one image butting up against another in a blog.”
    Tom, so what are your thoughts/responses to spirit surfers?
    i’m starting to see that blog, in its entirety, as art.. but that manifesto by kevin helped out a bit.

  • http://tommoody.us tom moody

    I did a blog post on them:

    http://www.tommoody.us/archives/2008/04/07/todays-question/

    And I’m sure I’ll do more. Instead of answering your question, I recommend comparing and contrasting what Marisa Olson said about Double Happiness, and what Bennett said here, to Kevin’s manifesto. I expect a short paper by the end of class.

  • http://tommoody.us tom moody

    I did a blog post on them:

    http://www.tommoody.us/archives/2008/04/07/todays-question/

    And I’m sure I’ll do more. Instead of answering your question, I recommend comparing and contrasting what Marisa Olson said about Double Happiness, and what Bennett said here, to Kevin’s manifesto. I expect a short paper by the end of class.

  • http://isoc-ny.org/wiki/NYCBAC_Queens_hearing Joly MacFie

    Video of this event is now available on the ISOC-NY website.

    http://www.isoc-ny.org/?p=214

  • http://isoc-ny.org/wiki/NYCBAC_Queens_hearing Joly MacFie

    Video of this event is now available on the ISOC-NY website.

    http://www.isoc-ny.org/?p=214

  • Art Fag City

    One additional point upon reviewing the video regarding Bennett’s initial comment: Internet activities as a whole were characterized by Shirky as a productive use of time, lolcats less so. So I was wrong about that.

  • Art Fag City

    One additional point upon reviewing the video regarding Bennett’s initial comment: Internet activities as a whole were characterized by Shirky as a productive use of time, lolcats less so. So I was wrong about that.

  • http://tommoody.us tom moody

    Watching the video of the conference I caught something Lauren Cornell said at the end that slightly (indirectly) amended what she said earlier about art gallery art vs new media art. It was something to the effect of “let print be print and do what it does best and let online discourse be online discourse.” That’s how I feel about the galleries. Instead of the “art based on a cabal restricting the market” (not how Lauren phrased it but other Rhizomers say that all the time) vs the open source new media art of the people it’s just two different media, or vehicles. One based on shared space and tactility and art objects that are unique because that’s the way they are made (e.g. paintings) and one based on speed and ease of transmission to a large number. We’re in the process of working out which ideas work best in their respective arenas. And, yes, galleries are resistant to change, but that’s a reflection of a general conservatism and aging curve and “brain drain” in the field, not clinging to the idea of scarcity qua scarcity. I know I said this before.

  • http://tommoody.us tom moody

    Watching the video of the conference I caught something Lauren Cornell said at the end that slightly (indirectly) amended what she said earlier about art gallery art vs new media art. It was something to the effect of “let print be print and do what it does best and let online discourse be online discourse.” That’s how I feel about the galleries. Instead of the “art based on a cabal restricting the market” (not how Lauren phrased it but other Rhizomers say that all the time) vs the open source new media art of the people it’s just two different media, or vehicles. One based on shared space and tactility and art objects that are unique because that’s the way they are made (e.g. paintings) and one based on speed and ease of transmission to a large number. We’re in the process of working out which ideas work best in their respective arenas. And, yes, galleries are resistant to change, but that’s a reflection of a general conservatism and aging curve and “brain drain” in the field, not clinging to the idea of scarcity qua scarcity. I know I said this before.

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